"The Queer Erasure of Asexuality (A Discussion)" Transcript

Auto-text is cleaned up somewhat to remove excessive "um"s and vocal tics.

I'm Nick.

Yeah, the ace spectrum. Um... that's kind of one of the um...

It's in a lot of ways considered one of the ugly stepchildren of the queer community and um... When I was working in queer circles I... there was that kind of discussion...

There was that discussion, very innocently had, about like.... like, they wanted to make sure that only queer groups got like a... There was kind of a... a kiosk sort of station, where were different groups and organizations would set up kiosks that people could visit. And there was a-- and they wanted to make sure that only queer people could have these spots, because what would happen is people would just kind of get a spot. Even though they had nothing really to do with queerness.

Um, so like there was kind of an asexual group and there was a discussion like... is that specifically a queer group?

I-- I-- I-- I see that sort of... angle, however my justification--

oh yeah yeah, that's the information, but my justification for why--

[Laughter]

My-- My organization-- My sort of qualification for this (and we've talked about this and you agree) is, um... that the queer community is a community of people established by a means of exclusion. Uh, we weren't collected in the hegemony, so we kind of banded together.

And while there might be no specific persecution for asexual people in the way that gay people have faced, there is a kind of very quiet persecution for asexuals. It seem as being-- For instance, I think uh asexuality in the American Psychological Journal is still qualified as a mental-- As a psychological disease, a mental health disease.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But like... when you are asexual you do see a myriad of ways that, uh, there's basically a psychological warfare against you. Every piece of media is focused around a romance or sexual attraction. It's seen as a for-granted thing for almost every piece of media, almost everyone there's that sexual expectation...

Right, absolutely, and-- and outside of media in like sort of... polite discussion... There's a way that people kind of, you know, when you're outside of polite discussion, and you're kind of being more personal with someone, there's a comfort with sex that is taken for granted. Like, you know, if you're having, you know, a rough time, your close friend might say, "just go out and shag someone".

And that's kind of seen as just like a universal. So it's a lot of very subtle ways that the hegemony reminds you that you're not really welcome. Or that you should be different. Or that you're there's something wrong with you.

And while there isn't really any conversion therapy directed to the asexual people... and while you think that there wouldn't be because society is kind of geared towards this neopuritan attitude of avoiding sex and avoiding uh sexual attraction at least in public discourse and especially like in public areas... there is that expectation that it's something that is going to happen behind closed doors.

Oh yeah yeah yeah.

And you want to sort of have evidence of what you're saying about there being like an expectation of sexuality. Take two queer-coded characters, or a queer-coded character, and straight people will automatically assume that they are straight. Like look at Yuri from-- Victor from Yuri on Ice. There is a huge straight component of the audience for that show that assumes that Victor is straight and hypersexual--

Which is hilarious. Because he's the bottom um... so like there's that expectation that it's going to be there, even if, in the media, it's not depicted that way, very clearly. But like and asexuality is beginning to be discussed in a larger, broader context nowadays.

That's what we're getting. That's what we're getting. There's a perception of what it is, uh-- There's a perception of it, versus what it is. And this discussion... The ways that asexuality is beginning to manifest, in sort of representation in media and a discussion in public. Even when it's done well, it's usually-- Or when it's done earnestly, it's usually only ever sort of half-baked. It's a much larger spectrum. It's a larger fish pond than what people see. So there's--

Asexuality is defined as a aversion to sex, lack of sexual drive, lack of sexual attraction, um... And that's kind of where the definition is formally very very vaguely. It's very unspecific.

But the public perception of asexuality is Sheldon from Big Bang Theory.

I know but like... once again like... That's true, actually. Um, because well, I see that it is asexual, it's like a lot of people in the audience might think "oh Sheldon is no longer asexual".

When I was kind of experimenting around with kind of identifying as asexual in university, I was kind of close with this one girl who lacked a lot of social skills... and when she did get a boyfriend she was like, "Guess what: I'm no longer asexual!"

And I think that's how a lot of people feel that it does work, it's like-- it's like the bisexual thing: when you get married to a man or a woman, it's like no longer straight, or no longer gay.

And if you get married, you're Straight For Life. --to a woman-- to a woman.

And if you get married to a-- And if you shack up with a guy or get married to a guy, it's like, "well, it's just a transitional period."

And like I understand why that existed at the time because we came from a very...

Not just a binary system but a very persecutional system where being bisexual meant that you could still latch onto some of that straight privilege. Um, and make it easier-

Yeah, and sort of make an easier transition into this kind of sexuality. Um, I've actually heard the inverse too, that people will kind of, um, they'll be straight and then they'll "snap" to dating a guy and be like, "oh I guess I'm gay now." And then they'll realize, "wait a second, I still like girls."

So um, I think that's where a lot of the perception that bi people are sneaky, um, very wrongly came from because we have this idea - we were talking about this the other day - that there isn't really room for experimentation in society. You're not really allowed to experiment or play around or sort of investigate different things. It's like, when you are- when you begin to exhibit signs of being gay, "oh, you're just gay." It's like there's no room for fluidity. Um, but-

That was- I was flipping that around! I was saying like asexuality is actually a lot more fluid than people think it is. Because Sheldon can get married and he-

I'm using that as an example. I'm using that as an example.

That's also not the- Well yeah that is the-

Yes, yes, sorry. [laughs]

And something that we're beginning to realize is that there is a separation between asexuality and aromantic. Which I feel a little bit concerned, the thing I'm starting, I'm starting to see, not that I'm concerned, I'm starting to see a trend for people to describe asexuality as aroace. I'm like, "that's not necessarily the case."

Some people are aroace and they have neither romantic nor sexual attraction to anyone.

Talk to any asexual person and they will tell you that they are incredibly kinky and horny. Since- wait no.

That's true, there is- within the community there is kind of a marked, um, acknowledgment, a very quiet acknowledgment that some of the kinkiest people you ever meet are identifying as asexual. Uh, cause they keep their sex up here. [points to their own head] Like, they just don't let it get out of their head. It's-

I'm pretty sure that a very strong component of fanfiction, like slash fiction, erotic fan fiction, um, libraries are contributed to by asexual people. [laughter]

Fancy YouTube. [laughs]

Yes, I was talking about kinky. Um and this is kind of the appearance versus reality of asexuality. The reality of asexual sexuality is that it is a very broad area and this has troubles translating into the dating world.

Yeah. Because for me online on Grindr, the things that I will say to people, first of all hopefully will never get leaked into the world, uh... second of all, I... before I meet a guy and this was a historic thing I had to kind of give a disclaimer, like, "hey, heads up I know we've been talking about certain things but I need to tell you that the more you get to know me in person, I'm not as horny as I seem to be." And that's just because I have a very active imagination and I really--

Yeah, I enjoy the idea of sex. Um, but like there are some branches of asexuality which much prefer to do sex online, or sex on the phone, uh, sex in a hypothetical context. Some prefer-- Some do not like penetration and like uh...

yeah, and I, I really like that that... I always thought that butt sex was a little bit overrated. And just just-- but a huge portion is the idea that so many gay people (and you might qualify as this) don't think that it counts as sex unless it's-- unless it's penetrative.

Greater separation between like sex-- a sex act, I qualify anything as a "sex act" as a sexual encounter. Anything with the intention of having that kind of sexual passion associated with it.

Um... And so like there there is a lot of um... explaining that I have to do... and usually I get ghosted... after that because it's like... 'cause I can see where they're coming-- where guys are coming from in that case. Because it's like, "oh, you're suddenly getting cold feet and you need an out." Um, and that's kind of how I get that kind of "out" feeling sometimes...

Screening?

(I have done that...) Um, because like sometimes I...

[laughs] Well, listen what that is, I'm never dishonest about it. I sort of am upfront and I say, like, "I'm not really interested in meeting up," um... but I love doing cyber, I love talking to people, and regardless of that there is still an ongoing expectation that, "oh we're gonna meet up eventually, he's just saying he's not into meeting people so he can bypass all of the undesirable-- whoops- I'll bypass all the undesirable gays!" Um, and when I was kind of coming of age on gay dating--

'Cause like, you know, when I was kind of coming of age on Grindr there was a big thing to sort of say, "not into meeting up," "not into hooking up." Um, and I like that because sometimes I wasn't. But then sometimes I was, and I would find the right personal and realize, "Oh. People are doing this maliciously." They are doing this to screen out people who are not physically attractive, they're not-- they're not physically attracted to. Um... And so when you did get that kind of good chemistry, regardless of whether you wanted to meet or not, the other person would have that expectation because it's like, "oh, I passed the screening process."

So, when you would kind of-- when it would become a- became apparent that you weren't really as into hookup culture as they wanted to be, or thought you would be, they kind of just abandoned you. Um, And when you were up front and you said like, "I'm not really into meeting up, I just want to talk", I think they got the vibes that I was just consistently going to be putting them off, or that they would eventually pass the test one day, and you know, would get to do the physical stuff.

But it took me a long time to sort of be comfortable with like being not as... intimately sexual with people. And I kind of, for the sake of being polite, I forced myself into a lot of kind of hookups that I wasn't really that interested in, or that I knew I wasn't going to have a fun time from the beginning. Not that there was any consent problems, it's just that I wasn't really into it, and I was kind of like-- it was kind of like, you know, laying there like a fish. [laughs]

Because you think you have to be hypersexual, because that's the kind of depiction--

On that regard, even if you are-- Even if you are that kind of monogamous kind of person, like when-- watch any gay drama, like Elite. (Is it Elites, or Elite?)

I know, I know, but like, when you were-- when you did get a permanent, you know, boyfriend, you would kind of... when the door is closed, oof! That's when the heat would hit, like...

It's like, you watch the kind of raunchy gay movies a little bit earlier, because you're much more curious than your peers, so that's kind of, you know, you're hypersexual. Like you and Queer as Folk!

So like you know-- you young little gayby comes of age, and like it's their exposure to, "oh this is how I be gay as an adult".

But the- the- the other side of that, is this kind of-- And that you have that, and that conflicts with the perception of asexuality. Which is the "doesn't have sex" and-- in media, this is very often the case, and a lot of asexual people are kind of upset by this, asexuality is represented by robots, aliens, and autistic people. And as it happens a lot--

Yeah. A lot of-- Or completely unconfirmed and just not acknowledged, like with Elsa. In a lot of those cases like, asexual people don't really like that, because we can be incredibly vibrant, colorful, zany people uh--

And even then, like... I think that's...

Data was snarky, though.

When I was younger, my mom said that I was a carbon copy of Data. I always loved the character, because my mom had Star Trek on a lot when I was younger. And like, I think that's a discredit to autistic people too. I identify as somewhere on the spectrum. I don't know what, but-- because like autistic people can be incredibly hypersexual, and that's perfectly fine too! And so like kind of pigeonholing these identities together because you know this privileged-- writer of privilege, this creator of privilege, has this one experience with this one person, thinks "oh, this one this must be what it's like for everyone".

So, those are two very conflicting public perceptions of what these identities ought to be. And when you put them together it's--- what do you get? Like people just don't believe you. You have no idea how many times I've gotten... Like I said "I'm asexual" and then kind of get the retort, "Oh, you just haven't met the right person."

Yeah, it's just like, "You'll change your mind."

That's something that I was really trying to push in the video about Black Swan. Kind of the concept of "okay, you're not here to procreate, what are you here for?"

I was really happy with how that came together.

[Laughing] You wanted to do that for so long! You finally got to!

[Laughing] That's true! That's true! That's true!

Um... and so it's really just hard to get across the... the weird little nuances of "yes, I want to meet people, I'd like to have these experiences, but like I want to have them my way. I want to have them in a way that I'm -I'm going to enjoy." And it's like, I'm also not opposed to negotiation.

And this is the thing about asexuality: some people-- some asexuals are like, "I do not like sex. I don't want to have it. It does not feel good. I hate it." And other people are like, "I could take it or leave it."

Uh, that's a really, really, really-- It's a really good question--

I did.

Magically disappeared. Okay, um, between the two of us, I don't need glasses to read but I do need--

[laughs] Growing pains! Um, "asexual enough," and that is a question for the ages in the Ace Community. Uh, 'cause it is... large in the sense of there are a lot of people in it and not so much large in the sense that ev--

Yeah, that it was an option. The discussion of what is ace enough comes up from a matter of, some ace people do enjoy some kind of sex, in different circumstances. Um, but the question arises, um you know, what qualifies as asexual. Because you get the purists who say "ace or aromantic means that you have no sexual desire or that you have no romantic connections." Uh, but some people have these things but in very specific circumstances. You mentioned people who like to only do it for cyber. Um, there are--

Uh, there's some debate about like, does a side qualify? Like, you know you have tops, bottoms and sides, is that asexual? Because you know, they don't enjoy penetration. Um, and I kind of fit into that kind of camp, like--

Probably not, no. There are plenty of reasons to not enjoy butt sex aside from just, "I don't like having sexual contact." Um, so like-- and the thing about-

It takes a lot of work, um, health complications.

The- the question is that I had this struggle with my own kind of identity, because I identified as asexual, because, um you know, I- I had some sexual drive, I had sexual urges, but like when push came to shove, like I didn't really like doing it that much. Um... but I loved think-- I love the buildup to that, I love the lead up to that, I loved thinking about it, I loved putting myself in situations

Uh yeah, and then I would just feel immense shame after we were done. I didn't really get that kind of elation afterwards.

The shame of not having enjoyed it.

Yeah, it didn't build-- it didn't lead up to my expectations. It wasn't what--

It's just the deep throat thing, there wasn't the bells, the whistles, the rockets, the fireworks. I didn't get that.

Our Lord and savior Linda Lovelace. [laughs]

Fascinating figure though. Um... historic figure. But like I-- I just--

[laughs] Yeah, so like I-- but then again, like there I am again, like a few days later being like, developing these very vivid fantasies. Um, and then once again just--

Being let down. Um, and I found that the people that I liked being around the most are the people that I liked spending time around with clothes on. Maybe not with clothes on, but you know, not doing sexual things. Um, and so like for about... seven years, this has been-- this has been dodging me. Seven to ten years, like "what is going on with me," and so I talked to a friend and sort of described that like... described those things and he said, "Okay, when you have your sexual fantasies, when you kind of, you know, go off on your own head, are they about you?" and I'm like, "No, they're about circumstances and situations I make up, sometimes sexual characters," and he's like, "Okay, you're aegosexual."

Aegosexual. Bit of a mouthful. But when the original studies were done on asexuality--

... the researcher realized that there's a very strange pattern among some of the research subjects where they have sexual desire, they desire desire, but they didn't really have... they didn't really find sex-- fulfillment in sex. Um, the original term was, forgive me, but auto-chro-is... autochroissexuality, which was more of a mouthful than aegosexual, but the people of asexuals decided that aegosexual is probably a better way to say it. It means that you are the ego of your sexuality, and other people don't really have much a factor in there. It means that you arouse yourself, but not that you're aroused by yourself, it's just that your imagination does the lifting.

Um, and I almost had a like, meltdown because I was like, "That's me, how did I not know about this?" and he was like, "That's because like, so few people know--"

"...that this exists." Um... but unlike a lot of other um, flags--

Just the fact that we didn't know that the clitoris was as large as it is until like the last 10 years, because we didn't research the inside. [laughs] No one bothered to research what the inside, what the internal elements--

Right!?

Uh so, the... asexuality fandom, uh, Wikipedia describes it as, "being distinguished by the tendency towards having sexual fantasies at times, despite feeling a disconnect between themselves and the sexual targets/object of arousal." My friend described it as, "we desire desire." Uh, this friend also identifies as this, he actually went into gender studies specifically to study this and write a dissertation about this. I'd love to read it.

Yeah, uh... he plays Magic of the Gathering now. [laughs]

[laughs] A legacy format where all the queer-ass furries and uh, communists are. Uh, and aegosexual actually means sexuality without the sex. A-ego-sexuality. Um, so I like to participate in sex, as a living sort of subject. I examine myself as a fantasy person. So that's-- that's the context that I like having sex, and that's why I like, don't like doing it that often, because the actual sensation of having it is less than the imagined sensation of what it appears or how it appears to be. Um...

I found some of those.

Yeah, yeah. And so like, when I say that--

Yeah, when I say that asexual people can be some of the horniest and kinkiest people you'll ever encounter, it's because that outside of the puritism-- purism of asexuality, there are a myriad of different ways that the human brain is just really weird about sex. Not weird as in bad, but weird as in like, it's... it's complicated, it's complicated. It's uh, "she's complex." [laughs]

But um, so yeah like there are-- these are things that are the subject of research and the subject of academic fascination, even if there isn't really a lot of academic interest in these things. Some people are and we're gonna see start seeing a little bit more of this, but there is a bit of a distinction between these-- between, you know, these sort of more psychological elements of asexual and the more self-identifying ones which, you know, there are a legion of flags, um because you know, the asexual community has been kind of... ignored, like we said, by the queer community at large, so I feel like there is a... overtendency to self-identify, and to sort of construct a... version of asexuality around specific, you know, circumstances.

And I feel like the pure- the gatekeeping, the purest gatekeeping of asexual aromanticism has led to that. Like, you can't be asexual because you enjoy sex in these circumstances, and it's like, but... yeah, I'm still, you know, I'm still weird about it. Um, and so like it's-- I feel like this is a situation where self-identified-- having the openness to just identify, self-identify as asexual, meaning like, I don't fit the sexual norm of either the cishet hegemony or the queer community so I need to belong here, because I don't belong anywhere-- anywhere else.

Um, and I really hope we can start moving towards that, because I hate seeing so much fragmentation within-- within sub communities. Because it-- it does cut-- I feel like there is an extent, like yeah, it's important to recognize the distinction between gays and lesbians and bisexual people and how, uh, and especially trans people in the LGBT, and how the cishet hegemony uniquely persecutes against each of these camps of people, and different cocktails of privilege that they might enjoy--

That's- that's- honey, that's a whole other discussion, I'm talking about how the persecution of a gay man is different than a gay woman.

And especially it gets different when you factor in people of color, and how these respective communities approach queerness.

Uh, and so like, there is-- it is important to recognize the difference in discrimination and the difference in the dynamics, of social dynamics as they fit into the society at large but-- And so I feel like if, if your version of this thing doesn't really change the dynamic of persecution against you, or the manifestation of your relationship with the culture, then I don't- I don't feel like it's... like, it's fine if you want to kind of have this sort of label on yourself, but make sure you're putting the label there yourself, don't let anyone else label you but you. Um...that's fine, but I feel like a formal definition or distinction of this kind of does take away from a lot of the discussion especially when you get cis people- straight people- cis straight people who are like, [in a mocking voice] "There are so many more letters than there used to be, I just can't keep up," and it's like, don't try. [laughs]

Oh yeah, describing it to like, um--

Funny fact, um, people who play D&D get laid more than you would believe.

And I don't blame the, the... fragmentation on individuals needing to be special stars, I blame it on... purist gatekeeping.

And I want to be clear about that, like I-- you know.

Yeah, the platinum star gay. [laughs] [in a mocking voice] "I had a C-section."

Were you?

We haven't really been behaving that badly today.

You were saying that, uh, we'd just watched Helluva Boss, uh and you watched the...

... which was the thing that's a spin off of, and you said that there is an asexual character and you quite enjoyed that. I haven't watched it, so...

[laughs] They cover all the sexualities.

... I buy that.

Moxxie's the cute little boy, right?

I know, but like he's-- no, b-o-i.

He's a boi. I mean like I buy that, like not that pegging or getting pegged makes you bi, makes you queer, but like... I-I've seen him kind of be flustered around the boys.

And he, uh, I like that in Helluva Boss, um, monogamous is the, um... is the taboo. That's the one that nobody likes to talk about, or is so annoyed--

Yeah yeah, I- I just really, really enjoyed that, sort of flipping the script.

But for whom the-- well like, like asexual, does like-- does there need to be a declaration made, or sort of a specification made, or is just the plot acknowledging that there is no romantic future for this character - ergh, that sounds so bleak - but there is no intended romantic future for this character. Um, and this character is comfortable with that. Is just writing that into the character and into the plot enough, or uh... is that good enough, or does there need to be a soapbox moment?

... it can be sucked out for, for screening in China.

When it comes to gay people, I like, I- I don't like having the soapbox moment, because I don't think straight-- when you have gay representation, when you want to have gay representation, straight people don't need gay representation, gay people need gay-- queer people need queer representation. Um, so having that soapbox moment where you explain to queer-- to straight people that it's okay to be gay... that's not useful to us, because we already have these messages, we already have-- And the ways that gay people, or queer people would interpret self-acceptance is different than the way that straight people would interpret accepting queer people. So there needs to be two very different manifestations of how this media handles that thing. So--

Like Luz, from The Owl House! I think that is like--

Bisexual, she's bisexual, but like that kind of attitude, where it's apparent but it's never made a deal out of, no one really questions it and she doesn't need to get on a soapbox because everyone's like, "oh, okay."

But yeah like-- and I've always kind of felt like there are ways-- instead of having that soapbox moment driving that identification, you can do that, but also there are ways that uh, queer people, asexual people, bisexual people, they interact with the world differently than other people of different sort of camps. So as long as you write that in and you do it earnestly--

But like, I also don't want to speak for the entire ace community, I think that you do need a balance of soapbox moments, as well as you need to have that incidental representation.

But I think you also need that mix of uh, Phastos from... Eternals, where like, his motivation was inseparable from his, you know, really, from his gay- gay marriage.

As a-- as a formula, because it's like, "as long as we do this then they'll be happy" and it's like, but you gotta do other things too. And it's like, "that's too much." Which- which-- and that's like the sort of thing, which representation do we use for this media, and it's like, you need to let a creative person do that, in which they point, they-- their heads start spinning around and they start throwing up um, pea soup. And God forbid let a creative person do something.[laughs]

Oh my god, right.

Oh, asexuality is absolutely hilarious, I can-- everything that I've kind of said in here that's kind of like, "oh, poor Nick," no, it can be funny with a different-- [laughs]

Yeah, tell us what you think, we know you will. [laughs]

[singing] "If you liked our show, tell everyone that. And if you think this sucks, keep your big--" [normal voice] It's from, it's the um...

It's from The Producers, it's their encore.

Whatever's happening next.

I'm Nick.